No need to follow manufacturer's instructions

Guest User
11/6/2002
My roofing contractor delivered responses to my punch list after he installed missing concealed fasteners in a 19 foot standing seam panel, today. I learned two things from his responses to my Punch List. 1) Metal Sales and probably most other metal roofing manufacturers should let the roofing contractors write the installation instructions. 2) A roofer that has been in the roofing business for 8 years with no problems must be doing everything right. The fact that snow got into our attic is either perfectly normal or is my fault. It only made a small wet spot on the sheetrock in one place. The winds were 25 mph that day, so when we get the 100 mph winds the attic pressure will stabilize and no snow will get into the attic. No need to be concerned about wind driven rain. I scanned the Roofing Contractor's Punch List Response with Optical Character Recognition, so it's original. The following is my Punch List with the Roofing Contractor's Responses interlaced: PUNCH LIST FOR RE-ROOFING PERFORMED BY FOWLER CONSTRUCTION AT HUTCHINS RESIDENCE 1. ProfileVent not installed per installation instructions. Sheathing not cut and removed according to industry standard, which calls for 1 inch to 1.5 inch of sheathing to be removed on each side of the roof peak. Some Image II roof panels are cut too short, and others are too long. See ProfileVent Installation Instructions. Response from roofing contractor: Profile vent installed as I have installed for the past 8 years, and have had no problems to date. Sheathing was cut to approximately 1.75 inches, with the measurement taken with the tarpaper over the ridge. There are only so many square inches of venting needed for the roof to work properly. 2. Eave flashing not installed per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. Guide calls out a 3 inch minimum overlap with a continuous bead of sealant between multiple flashing, when more than one eave flashing is required. See page 27 for a detailed explanation. Response from roofing contractor: I installed the eave flashing as I have been told to for the past 8 years. I have talked to three individuals (business) that say 1 inch is what they tell their customers for the over lap of the eave. 3. Ridge cover flashing not installed per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. Guide calls out a 3 inch minimum overlap with continuous sealant bead of sealant between multiple flashing, when more than one ridge flashing is required. One or more screws not installed in ridge cover at panel standing seam. See page 23 for a detailed explanation. Response from roofing contractor: Ridge cover was installed as all ridges I have installed for the past 8 years, with no problems to date. We’re not all perfect and I’ll admit I missed one. 4. Valley flashing not installed per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. Guide calls out a minimum of 6 inches overlap and a continuous bead of sealant between flashing, when multiple flashing are used. Panels meeting at the valleys are less than the 3 inch minimum from the center of the valley, as called out in the Guide. Some valley flashing not sealed with sealant at end meeting eaves. See page 25 for a detailed explanation. Response from roofing contractor: Valley flashing installed as I have installed valleys for the past 8 years with no problems to date. Panels meeting at the valleys are set back 2 inches, as I have been told that 2-4 inches is adequate. 5. Image II panel rib ends along eaves not sealed with sealant as per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. A continuous bead of sealant is not applied between all panels and eave flashing. See page 20 for a detailed explanation. Response from roofing contractor: The eaves have a continuous bead of sealant around the whole building. 6. Exposed fasteners over-tightened causing sealing material to tear. See page 11. Response from roofing contractor: As far as the screws being over-tightened causing the rubber tear, my comment to that is that you are screwing metal to metal which may cause a little tearing of the rubber but not to the point of not sealing. 7. Rubber Roof Jack around one sewer vent not installed per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. See page 33 for a detailed explanation, and view drawing for correct installation. Response from roofing contractor: Two individuals have told me that that is the way the roofjacks have been made to go over the ribs of metal roofing. 8. Some panel's painted finish damaged by wind blown tar paper. Response from roofing contractor: I looked at the area mentioned; it is a slight surface scratch not down thru the paint into bare metal. 9. As of October 20, 2002, fence damaged by Metal Sales delivery truck not repaired to original condition. Response from roofing contractor: Fence post broke by the Metal Sales truck was repaired by George. 10. At least one 19 foot long panel installed with no concealed screws along length of panel. Response from roofing contractor: I have looked at this panel and do not know how this was missed and Will repair it Nov. 4.
Guest User
11/6/2002
FACTS: Item number 1: Not following any of Ventco's ProfileVent installation instructions may not be a problem. I will find out when we get heavy snow during high winds, and when we get the, at least, 60 mph wind driven spring rains perpendicular to the 100 foot main ridge. Item number 2: The eave flashing averages 1 inch overlap, as the roofer explained. However, he used no sealant between them. He said sealant is not required, even though the instructions call out using sealant. This may be an ice dam or wind driven rain problem area. Item number 3: The roofer did go back and add sealant between the overlapped ridge cover flashing, just to please me, but not because he thought it may leak. He said sealant is not necessary. The instructions say to use sealant. Item number 5: The roofer claims there's a continuous bead of sealant between the panels and the eave flashing. Unfortunately this is not true. I can run a thin copper wire between the panels and the eave flashing in some places, especially at the high points on some striations. I would not be concerned about this except for ice dams caused by the gutters. The standing seam rib ends are not sealed as per the instructions. These are potential ice dam or wind driven rain problem areas, and a place for insects to get into the attic space. Item number 6: Many of the exposed fasteners are over-tightened, but I can replace the washers myself. This has an easy solution. Item number 7: Ken Buchinger with MBCI, and his co-worker, Kevin, both say don't install a roof jack over a 1 inch standing seam. http://www.mbci.com/whatsnew/article_012601.htm Kevin says to use two elbows to move the 3 inch sewer vent pipe over to near the middle of the panel space, and replace these two panels. The roof jack manufacturer says do NOT install their roof jack over a standing seam. http://www.itwbuildex.com/dektite.htm Item number 8: Three panels were scratched by the 50 pound sand coated tar paper when high winds blew it off another part of the roof. It can be seen from the ground, because the roof color is burnished slate and the metal primer is white or off white. I better live with this, because changing those 3 panels could yield worse results. Other than a little sloppy workmanship, everything else in near perfect! One other thing, George should not be repairing fences.
Guest User
11/11/2002
My roofing contractor delivered responses to my punch list after he installed missing concealed fasteners in a 19 foot standing seam panel, today. I learned two things from his responses to my Punch List. 1) Metal Sales and probably most other metal roofing manufacturers should let the roofing contractors write the installation instructions. 2) A roofer that has been in the roofing business for 8 years with no problems must be doing everything right. The fact that snow got into our attic is either perfectly normal or is my fault. It only made a small wet spot on the sheetrock in one place. The winds were 25 mph that day, so when we get the 100 mph winds the attic pressure will stabilize and no snow will get into the attic. No need to be concerned about wind driven rain. I scanned the Roofing Contractor's Punch List Response with Optical Character Recognition, so it's original. The following is my Punch List with the Roofing Contractor's Responses interlaced: PUNCH LIST FOR RE-ROOFING PERFORMED BY FOWLER CONSTRUCTION AT HUTCHINS RESIDENCE 1. ProfileVent not installed per installation instructions. Sheathing not cut and removed according to industry standard, which calls for 1 inch to 1.5 inch of sheathing to be removed on each side of the roof peak. Some Image II roof panels are cut too short, and others are too long. See ProfileVent Installation Instructions. Response from roofing contractor: Profile vent installed as I have installed for the past 8 years, and have had no problems to date. Sheathing was cut to approximately 1.75 inches, with the measurement taken with the tarpaper over the ridge. There are only so many square inches of venting needed for the roof to work properly. 2. Eave flashing not installed per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. Guide calls out a 3 inch minimum overlap with a continuous bead of sealant between multiple flashing, when more than one eave flashing is required. See page 27 for a detailed explanation. Response from roofing contractor: I installed the eave flashing as I have been told to for the past 8 years. I have talked to three individuals (business) that say 1 inch is what they tell their customers for the over lap of the eave. 3. Ridge cover flashing not installed per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. Guide calls out a 3 inch minimum overlap with continuous sealant bead of sealant between multiple flashing, when more than one ridge flashing is required. One or more screws not installed in ridge cover at panel standing seam. See page 23 for a detailed explanation. Response from roofing contractor: Ridge cover was installed as all ridges I have installed for the past 8 years, with no problems to date. We're not all perfect and I'll admit I missed one. 4. Valley flashing not installed per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. Guide calls out a minimum of 6 inches overlap and a continuous bead of sealant between flashing, when multiple flashing are used. Panels meeting at the valleys are less than the 3 inch minimum from the center of the valley, as called out in the Guide. Some valley flashing not sealed with sealant at end meeting eaves. See page 25 for a detailed explanation. Response from roofing contractor: Valley flashing installed as I have installed valleys for the past 8 years with no problems to date. Panels meeting at the valleys are set back 2 inches, as I have been told that 2-4 inches is adequate. 5. Image II panel rib ends along eaves not sealed with sealant as per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. A continuous bead of sealant is not applied between all panels and eave flashing. See page 20 for a detailed explanation. Response from roofing contractor: The eaves have a continuous bead of sealant around the whole building. 6. Exposed fasteners over-tightened causing sealing material to tear. See page 11. Response from roofing contractor: As far as the screws being over-tightened causing the rubber tear, my comment to that is that you are screwing metal to metal which may cause a little tearing of the rubber but not to the point of not sealing. 7. Rubber Roof Jack around one sewer vent not installed per Metal Sales Image II Installation Guide. See page 33 for a detailed explanation, and view drawing for correct installation. Response from roofing contractor: Two individuals have told me that that is the way the roofjacks have been made to go over the ribs of metal roofing. 8. Some panel's painted finish damaged by wind blown tar paper. Response from roofing contractor: I looked at the area mentioned; it is a slight surface scratch not down thru the paint into bare metal. 9. As of October 20, 2002, fence damaged by Metal Sales delivery truck not repaired to original condition. Response from roofing contractor: Fence post broke by the Metal Sales truck was repaired by George. 10. At least one 19 foot long panel installed with no concealed screws along length of panel. Response from roofing contractor: I have looked at this panel and do not know how this was missed and Will repair it Nov. 4.
Guest User
11/11/2002
FACTS: Item number 1: Not following any of Ventco's ProfileVent installation instructions may not be a problem. I will find out when we get heavy snow during high winds, and when we get the, at least, 60 mph wind driven spring rains perpendicular to the 100 foot main ridge. Item number 2: The eave flashing averages 1 inch overlap, as the roofer explained. However, he used no sealant between them. He said sealant is not required, even though the instructions call out using sealant. This may be an ice dam or wind driven rain problem area. Item number 3: The roofer did go back and add sealant between the overlapped ridge cover flashing, just to please me, but not because he thought it may leak. He said sealant is not necessary. The instructions say to use sealant. Item number 5: The roofer claims there's a continuous bead of sealant between the panels and the eave flashing. Unfortunately this is not true. I can run a thin copper wire between the panels and the eave flashing in some places, especially at the high points on some striations. I would not be concerned about this except for ice dams caused by the gutters. The standing seam rib ends are not sealed as per the instructions. These are potential ice dam or wind driven rain problem areas, and a place for insects to get into the attic space. Item number 6: Many of the exposed fasteners are over-tightened, but I can replace the washers myself. This has an easy solution. Item number 7: Ken Buchinger with MBCI, and his co-worker, Kevin, both say do not install a roof jack over a 1 inch standing seam. http://www.mbci.com/whatsnew/article_012601.htm Kevin says to use two elbows to move the 3 inch sewer vent pipe over to near the middle of the panel space, and replace these two panels. The roof jack manufacturer says do NOT install their roof jack over a standing seam. http://www.itwbuildex.com/dektite.htm Item number 8: Three panels were scratched by the 50 pound sand coated tar paper when high winds blew it off another part of the roof. It can be seen from the ground, because the roof color is burnished slate and the metal primer is white or off white. I better live with this, because changing those 3 panels could yield worse results.
Guest User
11/19/2002
Why does the MRA keep deleting this guy's post? Homeowners should be aware of others' problems, so maybe they can avoid them! Bad roofing contractors should be exposed. By you deleting these posts, it's like saying you side with the bad contractors. Looks like ATSCO and their associated subcontractors don't deserve any future business! My 2 cents and then some, CB
Allan Reid
Dura-Loc Roofing Systems, Inc.
11/21/2002
I requested it for the following reasons. He has been active with questions over a few month period and the story was not consistent. I personally helped him off line on a number of issues and had blueprints of his house to review in helping him out. Heres what we believe is the story. 1) He deisigns his own home. 2) He acts as the general contractor with no experience. 3) The home is located off the beaten path and he has relied on drawings that he supplied to roofers to bid the roof. 4) The drawings were wrong 5) He has problems with his roofer with short sheets and fitting of the ridge cap probably a result of short sheets. 6) He has ventilation problems as half his roof is Structutal Insulated Panels. 7) The framing is a little off and the roofer has trouble lining up the overhang 8) the various trades are not co-ordinated 9) etc, etc etc, 10) Along the way he became such an expert that he and a few buddies are now going vto replace the friends roof on a two story century home 11) Then he started to answer consumers questions and offer advice. 12) Now he posted his 12 point list of deficiencies on the web and started to rant. As a result I asked for the first time that his resent communications be deleted. I have been involed in the construction industry for 37 years most of which as a large general contractor. Seldom does one have problems when the full chain is followed where an architect designs the building and looks after the owners interests in selecting and reviewing products, choosing the contractor and reviewing that the completed work is to spec. A general contractor then sub contracts out the various works to trades like the roofing. If the workmanship or materials on the roof are not to spec the architect will not approve it and the general contractor will ensure that it is corrected or he does not get paid. As well the general contractor ensures that the various tades are co-ordinated and that their work is correct prior to allowing say the roofing to proceed. In this case the chain was shortened to two players from four and in effect the owner assumed the roles of architect and general contractor bbasically to save money. When the work of the contractor and or the roofing contractor was not to his liking he quickly reverted to being the owner and blamed the roofer for all the faults of improper scheduling and workmanship etc. I am not saying that the roofer shares no blame however as the homeowner does not like the work he performed himself as a general contractor scheduling and supervising the work and I think we only have half of the story. I can't say enough about getting referances on a any construction trade and follow them up. Seldom will you have a problem. In closing this gentleman has consumed probaly 25 responses during the course of his construction. We volunteer our time and our many years of experience in the industry to help answer legitimate questions. I felt that this gentlemans experiences were suspect and possibly we were being used either as entertainment or as a venue to vent his frustrations at a situation he created.
Guest User
11/22/2002
Al, Again, I appreciate your help! You don't have all the facts. FACTS: 1. TWO ARCHITECTS WERE USED AND PAID. 2. A STRUCTURAL ENGINEERING COMPANY WAS USED AND PAID. 3. THE HOMEOWNER WAS "NOT" THE GENERAL CONTRACTOR. A GENERAL CONTRACTOR WAS USED AND PAID. 4. THE HOUSE WAS COMPLETED IN 1998. THE OLD SHINGLE ROOF KEPT BLOWING OFF DUE TO HIGH WINDS. 5. THE MRA WEB SITE RECOMMENDED ATSCO. WE CHECKED SOME OF THEIR PREVIOUS WORK, BUT THAT'S NO GUARANTEE OF ANY OF THEIR FUTURE WORK. 6. NO ONE IS PERFECT AND SOME PEOPLE DON'T LIKE FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS. OUR ROOFING CONTRACTOR JUST DIDN'T FOLLOW THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS - IT'S THAT SIMPLE. 7. ONE OF THE FIRST INSTRUCTIONS OF THE METAL SALES INSTALLATION MANUAL SAYS TO CHECK THE SQUARENESS OF THE STRUCTURE. THE ROOFERS SAID OUR STRUCTURE WAS SQUARE. 8. I SENT A DRAWING OF OUR ROOF TO ATSCO AS PRELIMINARY INFORMATION. THE ROOFERS CAREFULLY MEASURED OUR ROOF AFTERWARDS. THEY ORDERED THE ROOFING MATERIALS ACCORDING TO THEIR MEASUREMENTS - NOT MINE.
Allan Reid
Dura-Loc Roofing Systems, Inc.
11/25/2002
This information would have bee great to have at the beginning. I would have recommended that you go back to the architect and general contractor to help make good on the situation if even to spec out the new roof system and ensure that it was done correctly. As to the MRA recommending contractors, this is not the case. Our member manufacturers are contacted by the contractors to sponsor them on the site. The member manufacturer then checks them out to see if they have any complaints on file prior to allowing them on. More than one manufactuer may sponsor a contractor and the one you chose may not be sponsored by the company that supplied the material. I would suggest that you one contact the company and advise them of your experiences and that you obtained the referance off the MRA site. Next I would contact MRA and advise them of your experience as well and they will bring it to the sponsor manufacturers attention.
Guest User
12/27/2002
I agree with you. The roofer did a hack job and is now being supported for his sub-standard work. If it's not correct - don't do it! This roofer just wanted the money.
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